***This is in no way a transcript. I am a terribly slow typist and I have the attention span of a flea. It gets worse the farther along I go. There was no media attention at this event, and I wanted people to have access to the information. I welcome corrections, additions, and any comments. I’d be happy to repost a more comprehensive version, so feel free to email me about it.***
Panel Discussion - Katrina: An Unnatural Disaster
Friday, September 9, 2005, 3:00 – 4:30 p.m.
MODERATOR:
John Echeverria, Executive Director, Georgetown Law & Policy Institute
PANELISTS:
Vicki Arroyo, Director of Policy Analysis, Pew Center on Global Climate Change
Mark Davis, Executive Director, Coalition to Restore Coastal Louisiana
Lisa Heinzerling, Professor of Law, Georgetown University Law Center and Member Scholar, Center for Progressive Reform
John Tripp, General Counsel, Environmental Defense
Oliver Houck, Tulane professor and founder of Tulane’s Institute for Environmental Law and Policy
Robert R.M. Verchick, Professor & Gauthier-St. Martin Eminent Scholar Chair in Environmental Law, Loyola University, New Orleans and Member Scholar, Center for Progressive Reform.
John Echeverria made an introduction of each panelist.
Oliver Houck was the first speaker. He stood in a crumpled unbutton white oxford, apologizing for his appearance; he was wearing borrowed clothes because of the evacuation. Houck has lived in New Orleans for 25 years and worked on coastal zone issues for 35 years. During this time, he found one consistent message from all fronts: what’s good for hurricane protection is good for natural resources is good for hurricane protection is good for the environment. They go together. What should we do now? Get off the beach and save the marshes.
There are two “what happened” stories:
The first happened on the Gulf Coast. Although the storm wreaked havoc, 75% of the obliteration were within 1/2 mile of the coast. It was the same with hurricane Camille, Juan, Ivan, and of course, Katrina. How many more do we need?
The scariest and upbeat statements I heard were along the lines of, “we’re going to rebuild and be better than ever.” Me too—I’ll do what I can, I’ll go and help rebuild houses and schools and hospitals. I’m willing to work as we all are. But the important question is where, that’s the most important question. Why build on the beach again? You pay the federal flood insurance, you subsidize the highways, the sewage, the water—you’re funding it.
Remember where Katrina came in? It veered east from Grand Isle—20 something major storms have hit there since I’ve been working on coastal zones. If you added up all the fed subsidies in Grand Isle and divided it by the number of residents, it comes out to be $450,000 a peace. If you only look at the permanent residents, we subsidize $1.2 million for them to live there. It’s scary to watch people rush back there; job one is to take care of people, but job two is not to set the mold for a repeat of this devastation.
What’s the new mold? You have to get people ½ mile off the beach! Buy it if you have to. Given the amount of money and property losses, it’s cheaper to buy than do the FIMA thing (basically to rebuild, but to elevate the structures and add storm windows). This is a real chance to do something better.
Okay, now story two—New Orleans city. New Orleans is different for 3 reasons. (1) It’s a world treasure; (2) you can’t move it; (3) it’s already protected by levies and also by 50 miles of marsh that extended between New Orleans and the Gulf. Each mile of marsh can absorb 2-3 inches of storm. That’s 6-10 feet of water. When Katrina curved east, it went over the marshes of the Mississippi delta—now the marshes are in shreds. The marshes could not provide a battery. In fact, the water line actually accelerated the storm. There’s no natural levy now; it’s been torn up with oil and gas canals. They built huge navigation canals inland from the gulf. It’s like Juan, here’s a vignette from hurricane Juan: coffins actually rose from the grass and were floating in the streets. Next to the Mississippi River, there is a canal with a direct shot to the Gulf—it is so economically bogus and costly to maintain that every ship is subsidized by maintenance costs that tax payers pay at $17,000 per ship. And it’s not just the transporting economics; the gulf itself is salty and has killed all the marsh vegetation and left it a ghost land. So when storms come, they come up that canal and waste land without providing any buffer. It is a significant contributor to the wave pressure on the levies that caused them to break
So what to do? First we need crash program to restore marshes, but most programs for conservation really end up eating it up. They want have their marsh and eat it to. To get serious, we have to relocate and stop developing the marshes. Also, you can’t channel the oil; we have to start going over the marsh. There are ways to keep doing what we’re doing with the natural resources, but we need to shift our methods. Maybe this tragedy will trigger change: what’s good for the environment is good for the hurricane protection is good for the environment...
Jim Tripp was the second speaker.
I work at Environmental Defense and I am focusing on many of the same things as Oli [Houck]. The Delta of the Mississippi was built by the river overflowing and sediments flooding over an 8-10,000 year span. Basically, the system was gradually expanding until 80 years ago. During those 80 years, over 25% of the delta has been lost. If you fly over it, you’d see marsh for a little while, then it becomes broken marsh and it quickly becomes open water entirely. For all intents and purposes, the gulf is 15-20 miles closer to New Orleans than it was 80 years ago, which was the best storm buffer we had.
The ecological and economic value in the wetlands is absolutely unique. What’s been done to protect this? Not enough. The first scientific paper written estimating the rate of land loss (conversion of wetlands into open water) was in 1972. It determined that we were losing 16.5 square miles per year. After the 1927 flood, they built the levies, and those levies have effectively prevented over wash of sediment so that the delta system (the sediment inputs) has stopped forming. It’s known as “sediment starvation,” and this loss of marsh is why millions of acres have been sinking.
In 1980, a coastal zone management permitting program was finally established to regulate the canals and pipelines under the Clean Water Act. Unfortunately, it hasn’t been perfectly implemented. It restricted the number of acres of wetlands to be effected. There has also been a citizens’ action plan to restore coastal Louisiana. A blueprint was created by citizens, environmentalists, and scientists to describe how they look in physical structures, costs, and what would be necessary to restore and preserve it. The state adopted a coastal trust fund to pay for some of these projects (BRO Act). It was about $15 million per year to pay for small local wetland restoration projects, which is what paid for Coast 2050 (reconnaissance study). This study determined the cost of restoration is $14 billion. That was the no. that appeared in that report, and it was a soft number since the sediment reversion and barrier island projects weren’t really included.
You can’t tear down the levies, but you can reintroduce sediment through sediment diversion projects (pumping through the levies). We would just need a large supply of sediment to rebuild the system. In 1995 there was a diversion project and oystermen brought a lawsuit claiming damages for the freshwater coming in. This indicates that the coastal system is not a wilderness area but a huge economic system, so designing a restoration program to replicate natural processes is very complicated.
With all that history, the first commitment made by Louisiana was 08/2001 at the Governor’s Coastal Summit, where he said it was a major priority. So over the last 4 years, there has been a very intensive effort to hire a renowned scientific team to run the projects. The Chief’s Report of 2005 and in the Water Act Bill provided for $1.2 billion to kick start the first phases of the restoration program. The problem is that we rely on the Army Corps of Engineers and that date for them could be 20-30 years down the road. Why has more not been done?
One problem is that the media has not paid a lot of attention to it to and so it’s not getting a lot of public attention. At the same time that we’re trying to call attention to it, Louisiana representatives in the Senate and Congress are trying to eviscerate important parts of the wetlands protection, so people don’t take LA seriously. Where to go from here?
This should be viewed as a national emergency and there needs to be a major amount of money to kick start the program. Within 10 or 12 years, if we had a robust healthy coastal system, we could have confidence that when another storm hits, the area would survive much better
Robert R.M. Verchick was the third speaker.
I will be focusing on Environmental Justice and hurricane Katrina (how race income and other factors heightens exposure to environmental harm). I, of course, don’t speak for the poor communities or describe what should be done with their voice. But I can play a side line role and attempt to amplify and illustrate the very real concerns these people have.
This is an environmental catastrophe and an environmental disaster and humans carry a responsibility in all that. You’ve seen what happened. We have, at the hotel I’m staying at, all watched TV (CNN) nonstop. I saw the same things everyone else saw. For the first few days, I saw something that almost no body said—almost everyone you saw being airlifted, looting, being looted, shot at, etc.—nearly all of them were black and poor. It was only until Thursday or Friday that, courageously, people began asking why that happened. Elijah Cummings said “we cannot allow it to be said that those who live and those who die amounted to nothing more than skin color”.. Rice denied discrimination by intent.
The two kinds of discrimination are difficult to reconcile. Why is it that hazards are much more likely to effect minorities and poor than white and wealthy?
Let’s just assume that neither policy makers nor hurricanes are racist in INTENT. Then why is it happening? The answer is that we designed it that way: we knew about it, we knew the effects, and did it that way. We decided public housing, healthcare, levies, and we knew the result would be a racially skewed environmental disaster.
We need to know the area a little better: let’s talk about exposures. Look at a map. We know that hurricanes hit the area where almost every city is disproportionately black in the US. Look at New Orleans in particular. It’s below sea level for the most part, but some areas are sinking faster than others. And guess what? The lowest lying areas are populated by poor blacks. I never saw my or Oliver’s neighborhood on the news—that didn’t take on the kind of water. “Water flows away from money,” that’s what they say.
Now let’s talk about vulnerability. 28% of the population in New Orleans live in poverty, 24% are disabled, 90% families with no car are black, the devastated public school system is 96% black. Post-Katrina, New Orleans is full of maligned neglect in the kinds of vulnerabilities—it’s called “imposing a risk.” We’ve seen that we have disproportionate exposure (levy upgrades weren’t completed, correct pumping wasn’t done) and vulnerability. Even if we don’t mean to hurt any group in particular, decisions are made anyhow and so risks are being imposed on others.
Let’s take a case study: the evacuation. In less than 3 days, ½ million people evacuated. 100,000 people were left behind because they had no access to cars (there were other reasons too). We only provided buses to the superdome, not to other cities or diverse areas. If you go to the homeland security department website, the official policy is for car-less citizens to have the responsibility to find a ride. This is crazy. 35% of DC residents have no car. It’s your fault for not finding a ride? This is called “blaming the victim” and “overwhelming ignorance” (the failure to know who is in your cities). Take Barbara Bush’s comments. It’s the way of framing issues: it’s either jobs and pollution or no jobs and no pollution.
Now let’s take questions for the future: evacuees. They have no money or possessions and are scattered around the country. What’s going to happen to them? What medical care? What housing? Education? What’s important is the opportunities for redevelopment. Are we going to rebuild the same ghettos and crumbled infrastructure to house the poor? We must consider integrating income groups, we must restructure public transportation, education facilities, access to quality health care throughout the community. And the water and land that is contaminated—who’s going to live on it? Who’s going to have to deal with it? It’s like that song, the Lakes of Pontratrain – how often those living in plain houses will offer protection and how those with wealth shut the door. We must resist that cycle. We should not turn away strangers any longer from the lakes of Pontratrain.
Vicki Arroyo is the fourth speaker. ***editor’s note—sorry, this is where I was slack—the information was overwhelming and difficult to type coherently***
Vicki began by apologizing for her disarray—she has evacuees and cats in her house. Most of her family lost everything in Katrina, and she’s trying hard to cope with it. She’s here to talk about climate change; her experience with Pew Center on Global Climate Change and how this contributed to Katrina.
Here’s what we *do* know: global temperature has increased by 1 degree due to human activity (greenhouse emissions and fossil fuels). We know it’s still increasing and sea level rises WILL occur—another 1-3 ft of sea level rise—if we continue on this cycle. When you take New Orleans’s subsidence at the same time, there’s a yard on either direction. You’ve heard about the factors that effected the land.. how about the climate?
Inundated barrier islands is a serious area affected by climate change. Obviously Louisiana subsidence plays a large role and sea level rise will too. Climate change will also contribute to more frequent storms. There has been a correlation with increased storm activity and sea temps but no detectable trend in storm frequency. We determine storm frequency through multi-decade cycles, so it’s difficult to tell. In the 1950-60’s, there was a lot of activity. We had hurricane Donna, Betsy in ’65, Camille in ’69. It was quiet until 1995, which led to more development and more erosion and now, more costs.
What we know: we’re currently in the middle of another high activity cycle, but we have some concerns about it. 1995 currently has the most storms in record. 1950-69 had similar stats, but we’re only halfway through the cycle, so it’s worrisome. This may well be one of the most active years, and it’s the 9th above normal in 11 years. It’s also the earliest date for 4 named hurricanes, record activity forecasts, and 16 named storms were halfway through the season and it already seems above normal. What we’re concerned about is that climate change is extending the season because it’s based on sea temps: warmer temps equals a longer hurricane season. There are also studies suggesting the intensity of storms are affected by global warming because it’s warmer so there’s more energy to be contributed to storms by the sea. There was an article in Nature last month that showed a large increase in the severity and intensity of storms correlating with sea temperature increase over the past 50 years.
We can’t say for sure that global warming caused Katrina, but it may well have been less destructive had there not been such horrible loss of environment. The other role climate change is source of concern is diseases. When it’s warmer, there is an enormous increase in infectious disease. Now there’s sewage everywhere because of the destruction and already strained health care system. It will be difficult to adequately respond.
The scary parallel between climate change policy and human activity can’t be denied. So there’s no dispute, but there’s also no response. This affects all coastal cities. I just hope it’s not too late
Heinzerling closed.
I just want to highlight the primary purpose of this afternoon: this natural disaster was affected by human decisions and it’s worthwhile to think about what the human decisions and actions were that surrounded this catastrophe. We don’t just think fatalistically, that this is an act of god, but let’s think of how we contributed and how we can avoid this in the future.
I’d like to offer a question: how should we deal with catastrophic risks that pose the danger for huge loss of life, huge social and economic fabric losses and specifically, how to rebuild or whether to rebuild where we don’t know the probability of an event, but we think if something bad happens, it’s catastrophic... what should we do?
The fashionable way of thinking is to do a Cost Benefit Analysis. One aspect of that, the reigning idea, is that when we think about probabilities, we should to pick a number in the middle (called “expected value”). That number is always less than catastrophe.
Now I’d like to offer another approach: consider the extremes—the best and the worst. When it comes to hurricanes, think about smallish storms that won’t do a lot of damage, and then think og the worse case as Katrina. What do you do? What kind of protections do you put in place? Which scenario do you have in mind? The question is: if we’re wrong in putting our money on one side or another, how will we feel when and if we’re wrong. Glad about all our money we saved? If we act on the worst case scenario and nothing happens, then the worst that happens is that we spent a lot of money, but what we have is no regrets.
Question and answer phase:
?: So how do we prepare for the worst case scenario?
Heinzerling: I think we’ve covered that well today.
Houck: Gulf Coast—getting people off the beach is the objective. If any single thing has vindicated the dissenting opinion in Lucas that these setbacks are not just for the park but for saving lives, this is it. But full and fair compensation would be cheaper than any kind of reconstruction. Plan facilities that would be commercial and access the coast—recreation areas, wharfs, piers, docks, etc that could be privately owned and rentable, but get people out of there!
Several fed programs (Coastal Zone Mgmt Act and NFIP) are supposed to do it but neither do—the standard for building in the coastal zone is “water dependency.” Drive down the coastal road. The ice cream shop is called Coastal View Ice Cream. That’s what makes it water dependent. The casinos are there and “water dependent” because the state passed a law requiring the casinos to be by the water. We need to just buy it and close it down form being too populated.
?: The restriction of private property rights may not be all that politically viable—while buyout programs would help to restore the coast line, is it politically viable?
Houck: The only thing politically viable is looking for refugees. But they are already trying to change the casino law. If they do that, maybe they can do more. Why should the feds be subsidizing small business loans right back in the same place? Yes, politically tough, but this is a national decision and if there were ever a good momentum, this is it.
?: Look at how we’ve responded to these opportunities in the past—the people that dominate the discussion are people saying “more levies, more structuring, etc.” Aren’t the people with the dollar signs in their eyes (the construction people) the big risk?
Houck: The juggler is insurance and if the feds pull out of subsidized insurance—no one will want to rebuild. In terms of the structural stuff: Grand Isle has been, itself, the recipient of 16 flood control projects. They put old Christmas trees and a barrier of old tires that then washed up in the next storm and covered the beach. They held a rock concert and everyone bought a rock and pushed it into the ocean.. those rocks are now who knows where on the coast.
Tripp: Coastal props have enormous value and are powerful economic forces; remember after the historic floods in Missouri, environmentalists pressured congress to amend the disaster law to fund relocation away from the flood plain and not rebuild. One thing is to try and think through in advance how disaster money is used for relocation.
Verchick: As far as paradigm shifts after catastrophes—the record is not that good. 9-11 sure did, like it or not, but when you’re looking at natural disasters, people are so intent on moving forward and doing something that they just go on like before. The last thing I want to see is rebuilding the dysfunctional tract housing for low income people together with no connection to the rest of the city. There is a real opportunity for innovative city planners to come in and we do something new! We don’t want the same thing, we want something that works better as a city
Arroyo: One of the refugees in my house got his first information from FIMA. The very first packet of FIMA was from the small business registration promising federal loans to start a small business—this man is 84 years old. That’s the last thing he needs. This doesn’t bode well.
Echeverria: The land’s gonna sink, the sea is gonna rise, whatever the figures, the logical thought is that New Orleans is beyond redemption. Is that true?
Tripp: the subsidence of the Delta in the recent decades, 20% is sea level rise and 80% is compaction of mud and sediment—so that would suggest that even with the rises in sea level, one could reintroduce enough sediment to where it would be just fine.
Houck: you’re question John, hangs in the air. Some parts are below sea level and some are above. The reconstruction may include areas that are not re-habited and you use them in a different way. For the short term, we may have to face the fact that we can’t develop the whole thing in the way it was developed before in a rational way—especially considering toxic cleanup. Over the longer term, I’m much more skeptical than Jim that we’ll be just fine. Global warming is a far greater threat than we give credit. It’s projected to increase and the maps show us as an island in 50 years. Whether we can maintain the island—Holland does—with a healthy buffer and levies, you could get in on a bridge, but it’s physically doable if we don’t lose the global warming war.. we can’t win one war and lose another.
?: The amount of $ Congress is throwing at the issue is overwhelming—what are the opportunities that come from these plans and investments?
Houck: the first round of money was facilitating greater development. The number one priority is building a huge new highway to Grand Isle as an oil and gas highway—but that’s pipelined. So what’s it for? So I have very little faith this money will go to environmental protections. The coastal impact money goes to the nature center: you walk around the boardwalk and pet the frogs. One of the most depressing things is going to be watching what they do with the money.
Tripp: One of the–at least with respect to the coast on the environmental side—the restoration of the Delta, we’d hope that there’d be at the very least a nationally prominent scientific review of what’s going on. Accountability for the programs—some national accountability that’s no going on. As far as the highway, the proposal is supposed to be environmentally better; so long as you’re going to have a port there, then you need a way to get stuff there
Houck: That will just encourage more people to go there...
?: This question related to Environmental Justice. Will this change things in the courts? How about their focus on due process and equal protection issues? [I was confused by this question because I couldn’t hear her well].
Echeverria: I hope that this triggers a response and opens up for dialogue—what we want to happen after this terrible event is more of a recognition that the goverment can play a role in protecting people and this trend of allowing the poor and minorities to drown in the bathtub will be faced. I want to see more protecting safety nets and the environment, but I have no hope that this would change the jurisprudence of the courts, if that’s what you mean.
Houck: Black people in New Orleans took a beating. Having lived the next week in Mississippi hanging around to see if I could be of service; I heard a lot of Mississippi saying that this blowup ripped the cover off of feelings people wouldn’t dare express—racist and the worst kind of rhetoric from otherwise reasonable people.. so I don’t know what the country is saying overall, but that’s worrisome to me.
Editor’s Comments:
These people have gone through intense trauma, and most of them displayed some symptoms of PTSS. I admire their courage and ability to come up and talk about this Katrina so close to her occurrence. I heard some grumblings that it wasn’t enough of something or another, and I’d just like to comment on that. I heard comments that there wasn’t enough formulation of reconstruction or ideas for policy/law changes. I heard people complain that they wanted more information provided in a more succinct fashion. I just want to say that these people are housing refugees, they are rebuilding their broken lives, they are trying to take a breath. There was one point that didn’t make it into my transcript where Prof. Houck was discussing the fact that his drinking water (located four blocks away) had a body, shot through the head, lying in the well. Asking these people to have a comprehensive program and presentation ready seems a bit unreasonable to me. I was happy to be there to hear their experiences in light of their expertise. I am proud of GULC for hosting an academic forum for a first cut discussion. I believe (hope) that this is just the beginning of our discussions on Katrina.
What I was most excited about was the opportunity for innovative community planning. This is an opportunity to implement a lot of the past few decade’s land use and communitarian efforts on a grand scale. This is a chance for us to make empowering decisions that will truly integrate our community in a way that will encourage democratic involvement and civic activism. For those of us in law school (and actually, almost every field/art/practice), we are in a unique position to offer our assistance and give our gifts of innovation and ideas. There’s going to be a lot of money put into the reconstruction and redevelopment of Louisiana. With the current administration, it will be difficult to break through the large construction corporations, but perhaps there is a way to influence politics to create a better community—one that does not disadvantage suspect classes.